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Reverse mortgage, owner died, house abandoned, how to buy? (RE agent, appraised, foreclosed) - Foreclosures, Short Sales, and REOs - - City-Data Forum

01-05-2014, 03:12 PM
 

Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii

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About four years ago, the owner of the house next door died. She had just gotten a reverse mortgage on it about a year before. Her heirs didn't want to buy the house back from the mortgage company and the house has been sitting empty for four years now. We have finally tracked down the financial institution who currently holds the mortgage, but we haven't contacted them yet. We want to buy the house, what's the best way to go about it? There must be some benefit the financial institution gets from holding onto the house, although they have to pay property taxes on it and it isn't making them any money from rents or anything else we can see. The yard is terribly overgrown, there's beginning to be rats over there and the house is starting to deteriorate. We'd like to buy it while it's still easily salvageable.

The financial institution doesn't seem to be putting it up on the market. I think they foreclosed on the heirs? What does the financial institution do in the case of a reverse mortgage when the owner dies? Why would a financial institution keep holding onto the property for this long?

Quick reply to this message 01-06-2014, 02:38 PM
 

Location: Scottsdale, AZ

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Because this is an estate, it may be more complicated that you think. But, I would first contact the owners to find out where they are at with this debt. If you find it is in foreclosure you will need to find out the status of such things as probate status, back property taxes, IRS Liens, etc. The only way I know is to do a title search.

The bad thing is that even if you find the bank and asset manager they are unlikely to deal directly with you. They will sell it through a RE Agent when they are ready.

Quick reply to this message 01-06-2014, 03:29 PM
 

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Do you know if the taxes are paid up to date? That would be the first thing I would check. If they're not, that's an angle to begin discussions with the financial institution. As has been pointed out, however, they usually won't deal directly with potential purchasers...but you won't know unless you ask.

Quick reply to this message 01-06-2014, 09:20 PM
 

Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii

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The taxes are paid, the heirs were offered the property at some sort of percentage of appraised value and declined. I'd heard the property was being "foreclosed" on, but how can the financial institution foreclose if it already owns it? The property - according to the papers were were able to get on it - was reverse mortgaged for $570K but that number has nothing to do with any sort of real world value at all. If the place were appraised, I'd be astonished if it went over $175K. We've found out who the financial institution is that is holding it, but we haven't contacted them directly yet since we aren't sure what the best method is. Should we get a Realtor to ask for us?

The place was taken care up up until several years ago, since then nothing has been done, not even the folks with clipboards have come past to checkup on it. I'm thinking of mowing the lawn and doing the yard work and charging them it. We might be able to post a lien on it for the yardwork so if /when they get around to selling, we'd hopefully find out about it.

Quick reply to this message 01-06-2014, 09:26 PM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

Why would a financial institution keep holding onto the property for this long?

The short version? The mortgage is guaranteed by the government. If they sold it 4 years ago for full value at $100k or if they sell it falling apart for $25k and the gov guarantee kicks in $75k, they still get $100k. They get the same amount no matter what, so why hurry. Quick reply to this message 01-07-2014, 06:08 AM
 

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There was a similar situation in my town - although there were no heirs and no foreclosure. The original owner spent 3 years in a nursing home before passing away. It was another 2 years of pushing paper before the court appointed adminstrator was given bank approval to try a short sale. It took nearly a year for the property to sell. The house was basically a hazmat zone. Lead paint, asbestos, etc.

The property sold for 1/2 the assessed value of the 1.62 acres near the water.. the most upscale neighborhood in town.

Quick reply to this message 01-08-2014, 06:21 PM
 

Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii

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The yard is a mess, but salvagable. The house is okay, although there may be a bit of water damage below the bathroom sink, not too terrible. We'd love to buy it for 1/2 the assessed value but we'd even buy it at the assessed value. It's directly next door so it would make a great mother-in-laws "room". Much better than in the house. It's been going on four years now and no short sale in sight. How does one find out the current state of the paperwork on a house? I had to go into the tax office and ask them who was paying taxes on it. If the taxes hadn't been paid, then I may have paid them and tried a "hostile" takeover, although I think that would have to be done for ten years before it would become legal.

The ownership of properties by financial institutions is crippling our neighborhoods. Wouldn't they make more money by keeping the properties in good shape and having a property management company rent them out?

Quick reply to this message 01-08-2014, 08:31 PM
 

Location: Kansas City North

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The owner's name and all mortgage-type paperwork is public record. You can go to the courthouse and see them (at the Recorder of Deeds or similarly named office). They may very well be online as well.

Quick reply to this message 01-10-2014, 01:56 AM
 

Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii

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The "Bureau of Conveyances" would be our Recorder of Deeds, unfortunately, it's on another island and airfare is $150 round trip. Plus car rental, etc. etc. The owner's name is still listed as the person who died four years ago. The person listed on the last mortgage document filed with the Bureau of Conveyances (for a fee, they'll send documents) lists someone else as the holder of the mortgage but when we contacted the last listed mortgage holder, they said they'd sold it years ago. We tried following the chain of who all it had been sold to but after several layers nobody knew anymore. We finally found what we think is the actual owner but aren't sure how to go about making an offer on the house. Do we call them on the phone and say "Hi, we want to buy a property you hold a reverse mortgage on". Or hire a Realtor to go ask them the same thing? How does the amount of the reverse mortgage ( $570K ) relate to the actual value of the house (somewhere around $175K)? Will the reverse mortgage holders expect the amount we offer them to be the $570K? Will they expect us to offer that amount or will they accept an offer closer to the actual value of the house? Will they talk to us at all? Can they sell the property without it being officially foreclosed on? The person who they gave the reverse mortgage to died and her heirs declined buying the property back. Do they have years of paperwork to go through before it can be sold? If we find the heirs, can they offer to buy it for us? Or since they declined to buy it several years ago are they now completely out of the picture?

It is all very confusing, I'm not even sure who the people to ask would be. Realtors? Lawyers? Asking lawyers things can get really expensive really quickly.

Quick reply to this message 01-10-2014, 04:49 AM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

Do we call them on the phone and say "Hi, we want to buy a property you hold a reverse mortgage on". Or hire a Realtor to go ask them the same thing?

I'd still just call them directly. They may not want to deal with you, but maybe you can get some answers as to their process for dealing with the house. Quick reply to this message Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

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Page 2

01-10-2014, 08:23 AM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

I think they foreclosed on the heirs?

You should really find out if they did indeed foreclose. If they did not, you can still buy the place from the heirs because the house would still be deeded and owned by the estate, even though they have not dealt with it in 4 years.

Much easier to buy it from the heirs than to deal with a bank.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 01-19-2014, 01:03 AM
 

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I believe when the original reverse mortgage lien got recorded, they used an amount 1.5 times the appraised value of the home. it's to cover future interest and annuity payments on the reverse mortgage. it seems high now because the home most likely went down in value since the mortgage was taken out. the estate had one year to satisfy the reverse mortgage after the home owner passed (by selling, re-financing, ect). after one year if the estate failed to pay off the mortgage, the bank should have foreclose and sold the home. if the home is sold at a profit, net proceeds go to the estate. if the home is sold at a loss, the fha reverse mortgage insurance pays a claim and the estate is not responsible. if the reverse mortgage balance exceeds the fair market value of the home, the immediate family has the option of purchasing the home for 95% of the current appraised value. you as an outsider don't have this option.

imo you need to find out who the current lien holder is through public records and contact them about buying the home.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 01-29-2014, 12:59 AM
 

Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii

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I finally found out who's been paying the taxes on the property so I called them up. However, the taxes were paid by the mortgage company and they claim they don't own the property. I guess now we call the heirs although last time we talked to them several years ago, they didn't want to deal with any of it and just let the house go to the bank. Actually, I think they thought that had already happened. So, if this is sort of a pre-foreclosure can it still be bought if we can convince the heirs they own it enough to sell it?

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 01-29-2014, 04:12 AM
 

Location: Southern California

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

So, if this is sort of a pre-foreclosure can it still be bought if we can convince the heirs they own it enough to sell it?

The owner died, the loan still lives. The property might have been given to the heirs or maybe there was no will. The lender will probably have to accept a short sale. The owner of the property has to accept a short sale. There is a balance that is probably different than the 570 recorded. The bank probably won't tell you the balance, but over that last four years the balance has been growing due to the taxes paid and mortgage not being paid. Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 01-29-2014, 04:29 AM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

So, if this is sort of a pre-foreclosure can it still be bought if we can convince the heirs they own it enough to sell it?

It sounds like you still don't know who actually owns the property. You'll need to check the deeds office (whatever it might be called in your area) to see who is the owner of record. Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 01-31-2014, 08:41 PM
 

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if the estate still legally owns the property you should be able to buy it directly from them. it will have to be at fair market value to satisfy the reverse mortgage requirements (assuming the mortgage is upside down). the estate could also surrender the title to the bank- which is what they should do if there is no equity left.

if I was you I'd try to deal with the estate and pray for a lowball appraisal

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 02-01-2014, 12:05 AM
 

Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii

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Well, I'll ask one of the folks at quilting group, they are more familiar with the family than we are. What should I tell them? They aren't likely to be the sort of folks who do much with buying and selling houses or finance and such things. "Hi, I want to buy your mom's house?" They then tell me they quit making payments on it and don't own it or they have nothing to do with it.

Do we get a Real Estate broker to work the deal, find a land attorney, have the estate heirs contact the bank? I doubt they are going to want to contact the bank, if we can work the whole thing so they don't have to do anything but sign a paper, it would probably work best. But how is that done? I've usually bought houses through real estate agents.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 02-01-2014, 04:39 AM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

Do we get a Real Estate broker to work the deal

Sure, if you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself you can always try to contract with a real estate broker. Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 02-01-2014, 11:41 PM
 

Location: Dallas area

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Something similar happened to us, but we were on the other end. We were the heirs. My husband's estranged father (in another state) had a reverse mortgage on his house and passed away. We weren't even informed until a year later. Then another year after that, a girl calls out of the blue and says, "I've found you! I want to buy your Father's house," and we were very confused as we assumed the house had already gone to the reverse mortgage company. The girl who called was very sweet and her husband had grown up in that house. They were newlyweds and wanted it very badly for sentimental reasons. I'm a softie, so I did what I could. We traveled to the state where the house was and checked it out. It was in bad disrepair. I called a local agent to get a Comparative Market Analysis on the house to find out what it would sell for. Then we called the reverse mortgage company, but they refused to tell us the amount of the liens since we weren't listed as the official owners. The owner on the deed was still my deceased Father in Law. (We were trying to determine the liens to see if it was worth it to sell to this girl, or if we might have to bring money TO THE TABLE, which we absolutely didn't want to do.) The Real Estate agent we were talking to was able to call in a favor from a friend at a Title company to tell us how much the liens were from the reverse mortgage. They were WAY more than the house was worth. There was no way my husband and I were going to get the certificate of heirship and transfer the house to our names and end up PAYING money, as I'm sure your heirs you're dealing with would not. So, the house went to foreclosure auction where the Reverse mortgage company had sent a representative. The newlyweds were going to try to get it at this auction, but they didn't. The mortgage company bid on it (they always do) and got it. Now the county records for the property were in THEIR name, so they could clean it up and list it with a local realtor. Last I saw, it was still for sale.

Hope this info might clarify some of the things you were wondering.

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Page 3

02-06-2014, 01:52 AM
 

Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii

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Thanks Art_Teacher_Mom, I suspect your scenario could pretty much be a carbon copy of what we are looking at. The state records still show the deceased as the owner of the house. Do folks get a big lump sum at the start of their reverse mortgage? Sort of like a down payment? Or do they just get monthly payments? Someone at quilting said something about she (the deceased owner of the house) got a reverse mortgage and then "the kids took all the money" so it sounds like a lump sump of some type? Although it could also have been the monthly payments as well. This is just data from a small town rumor mill several years after the facts.

I think she may have gotten the reverse mortgage in 2006, and what would be a rough estimate of the payments on a reverse mortgage valued at $570K? $2,500 a month? The current value of the house is probably about $150K so if the payments are over $1500 per month, they should be upside down by now. Although they stopped paying them when she died, didn't they? She only had the reverse mortgage for several years. If they stopped when she died, then the house wouldn't be upside down yet unless there was a big down payment paid out.

Quick reply to this message 02-07-2014, 12:55 AM
 

Location: Dallas area

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hotzcatz: My deceased Father in law got a lump sum. His daily-care nurse ended up stealing most of it we found out through bank statements and checks we had found she'd written herself and her boyfriend. Sad situation. Sounds like your deceased home owner had a similar problem, again. The Realtor told me most elderly choose lump sum, but there is a payment option some do choose. In our case, as soon as he died, the lump sum came due and every month it wasn't paid, extra charges accrued. You can bet extra monthly charges have been added to the house you're looking at, too. What is supposed to happen ideally, is the heirs sell the house rather quickly and the proceeds pay back the reverse mortgage and anything left over is the heirs. The reverse mortg. company paid the property taxes so it wouldn't be taken over by the county. I bet that's what's happened in your case, too.

Your best bet is to find someone who can do a Title policy search for you to show the liens. This is likely not a free service, but you might get lucky with a title agency that would help you out.

Last edited by art_teacher_mom; 02-07-2014 at12:56 AM .. Reason: spelling! Lol

Quick reply to this message 02-13-2014, 09:28 PM
 

Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii

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Thanks, Art_Teacher_Mom, that's a good next step. Who or what entity does a title policy search? Law firms? Title companies? Would they all be filed with the Bureau of Conveyances?

Hmm, I can search by name and find mortgages held by specific people in the database, I'll have to go see if I can search by address.

Quick reply to this message 02-14-2014, 06:57 AM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hotzcatz

Who or what entity does a title policy search? Law firms? Title companies?

A title company would be your best bet. A real estate attorney could do it as well...but they would likely charge more. Quick reply to this message 02-15-2014, 10:11 PM
 

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you have three payment options when you get a reverse mortgage. lump sum cash, monthly payments (term or tenure) or a credit line. you can also do combinations such as $20k upfront, $500 a month for life, plus a credit line (which can be accessed for more money down the road or to increase your monthly payments). your individual goals/needs determines the best option. If the house appraised over 500k in 2006 when they took the reverse and its worth 150k now, I can guarantee you it's upside down.

the estate should surrender the deed to the bank and wash their hands with it. The bank would then sell it at fair market value, regardless of the mortgage balance. for example: if $300k is owed on the reverse mortgage and the house appraises for $150, the bank would sell you the house for 150K. They would then file an fha reverse mortgage insurance claim which would reimburse them for the 150k loss.

Quick reply to this message 02-15-2014, 10:35 PM
 

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to clarify- there has been a recent ruling that gives the immediate family the option to buy back an upside down reverse mortgaged home at 95% of current fair market value. for example. if the last remaining borrower dies and the reverse mortgage balance is $200,000. If a new FHA appraisal determines fair market value to be $100,000, the IMMEDIATE family- (spouse or child, ect)- can purchase the home for $95,000. Or they can surrender the deed to the bank and not be responsible for any losses.

before this ruling, the family would have had to pay the mortgage balance to keep the home, even if it was more than market value. an outsider would only have had to pay market value.

Quick reply to this message 02-16-2014, 10:40 AM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by anicon

for example. if the last remaining borrower dies and the reverse mortgage balance is $200,000. If a new FHA appraisal determines fair market value to be $100,000, the IMMEDIATE family- (spouse or child, ect)- can purchase the home for $95,000.

Sounds like a government program. I'm willing to be the tax payer eats the $105,000 loss and pays the bank for the loss. Ridiculous. No wonder the banks are still advertising reverse mortgages, there is no way they can loose money. Quick reply to this message 03-16-2015, 03:29 AM
 

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the owner that we rent from just passed and she took out a reverse mortgage on the three properties. Her daughter was taking care of her and lives in one of the property and we have been paying her rent. now that the owner has passed do we continue to pay her rent? the property taxes, homeowners insurance, etc. have not been paid for a very long time, the daughter informing as there was a reverse mortgage on the property before we moved in as well as informing us about nothing being paid an it's only a matter of time before the bank takes over. what do we do?

Quick reply to this message 03-16-2015, 03:34 AM
 

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I apologize it meant to say the daughter failed to mention anything to us about the reverse mortgage as well as not paying the insurance and property taxes. she also has continued to take rent from me and we're not sure if the bank already owns the property.please help

Quick reply to this message 03-16-2015, 03:38 AM
 

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the owner that we rent from just passed and she took out a reverse mortgage on the three properties. Her daughter was taking care of her and lives in one of the property and we have been paying her rent. now that the owner has passed do we continue to pay her rent? the property taxes, homeowners insurance, etc. have not been paid for a very long time, the daughter informing as there was a reverse mortgage on the property before we moved in as well as informing us about nothing being paid an it's only a matter of time before the bank takes over. what do we do?

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Page 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudyrunner My friend has a house with a HECM. She wanted to short sale it in benefit of her niece (no length arm). Appraisal price came higher than niece's offer but lower than principal balance. Her niece's realtor ask my friend to leave the house so her niece can buy it in 45 days.

Is the Realtor right and what is going to happen?

It's highly unlikely a bank will knowingly authorize a short sale between an owner & their niece. Selling to any family member is not an Arms Length transaction; according to Freddie Mac it's considered fraud.

Combat Short Sale Fraud with an Arm?s Length Affidavit - Freddie Mac

Short sale guidelines do vary, depending on the investor or servicer. But abandoning the property in order to expedite the sale is an equally risky proposition.

Many servicers' guidelines call out abandonment as cause to deny a short sale, & they then simply move ahead with foreclosure. FHA ATP (Approval to Participate) guidelines especially frown on abandonment.

If your friend is working with a Realtor who is knowingly encouraging a non Arms Length transaction, as well as abandonment simply to expedite...I'd suggest your friend seek a 2nd opinion from a more knowledgeable short sale expert working in your neighborhood.

Last edited by BrokerHarry; 03-25-2016 at07:39 PM ..


Page 5

03-27-2016, 07:23 PM
 

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what does it mean when ashort sale is on the underwriters desk? Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 03-28-2016, 04:21 AM
 

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an underwriter checks everything out to make sure your income, job stability, credit, debt to income ratio. etc is worth you having the loan. You don't interact with the underwriter but a lender will get you a go between or ask for any documents needed themselves. the fact that it's a short sale shouldn't make a difference all mortgage loans have to go thru underwriting.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 03-28-2016, 06:22 AM
 

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Iam paying cash for the house.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 03-28-2016, 08:12 AM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bates2000

Iam paying cash for the house.

Then they must still have to check the funds to make sure it's not illegal or drub money I would think. You should really ask your realtor or lawyer or the listing agent.

Maybe it's the banks underwriter for the property, not the loan. or has something to do with the current owner's loan.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 03-28-2016, 08:16 AM
 

Location: Kissimmee, Florida

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bates2000 what does it mean when a short sale is on the underwriters desk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bates2000

I am paying cash for the house.

It likely means the servicer has decided the sellers possibly qualify for short sale consideration, & they are now finally analyzing your purchase offer. The investor behind the note would be taking a very hard look at the most recent BPOs, & they're determining whether your cash offer is close enough to current fair market value (less whatever repairs might be required to bring the property back up to average, quick sale condition as an REO).

At this point, you may see a counter offer come down the line, depending on exactly how strong your offer is.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 03-28-2016, 10:23 AM
 

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how long does it usually sit with the underwriter
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 03-28-2016, 11:32 AM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bates2000 how long does it usually sit with the underwriter
Until all the issues are resolved. But since you don't have a loan there is nothing you can do, since you have not been asked to submit documents, that's what they normally do, request things.

I guess short sales are different and you have no closing date, right? Because in a regular loan things are usually thru underwriting within 19 days of closing.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 03-28-2016, 01:38 PM
 

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i have had 2 closing dates so far.. I have one on the 31st of this month .. i know it is not goin to happen.. Short sales take forever.. i just want to know if they goin to accept or counter offer.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 03-29-2016, 05:55 AM
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bates2000

i have had 2 closing dates so far.. I have one on the 31st of this month .. i know it is not goin to happen.. Short sales take forever.. i just want to know if they goin to accept or counter offer.

How can you have a closing date if the offer has not been accepted, is this normal for short sales? Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 03-29-2016, 06:24 AM
 

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Yes a normal short sale. I just keep extending my real estate contract and each time there is a different closing date. Also we r not using a mortgage company. We r buying the house out right

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Page 6

04-02-2016, 10:10 AM
 

Location: MID ATLANTIC

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There are so many kinds of underwriters - all that title signifies if someone is reviewing the file to make certain it meets someone's criteria. It could be with the foreclosure lender's underwriter, it could be with the title insurance company's underwriter, or it could be with the liquidation company's underwriter. If they are working on an insured loan (prior lender), it can be with the mortgage insurance underwriter.

Ask for specifics when the blow you off with that catch-phrase. It could be tied up for two days or two months.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 04-02-2016, 01:08 PM
 

Location: Kansas City North

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bates2000 how long does it usually sit with the underwriter
The house I currently own was previously being considered for a short sale with another buyer. The file was apparently languishing on the short sale desk when the foreclosure boys swooped in and foreclosed on it. They then put it on the market for considerably LESS than the short sale offer, and we were lucky enough to buy it. I have no idea what happened to the short sale buyers. Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message 04-05-2016, 06:33 AM
 

Location: MID ATLANTIC

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Okey Dokie

The house I currently own was previously being considered for a short sale with another buyer. The file was apparently languishing on the short sale desk when the foreclosure boys swooped in and foreclosed on it. They then put it on the market for considerably LESS than the short sale offer, and we were lucky enough to buy it. I have no idea what happened to the short sale buyers.

This first question any buyer should ask their agent before making an offer on a short sale, how many successful short sale transactions have you had in the last 12 months? 2 years? EVERYONE did short sales 5 years ago. Anyone can write the offer. Only a pit bull will sink their teeth into the transaction.
Short sale buyers are depending on others to push their agenda, when in fact, all they are given is lip service. If you have a short sale offer accepted by a seller, and your agent is content on sitting back and waiting, be persistent and be firm, make noise so the case managers know there's a buyer in the picture. Typically, the seller has selected a title company to assist, start there. If the listing agent is also content on sitting back and waiting, well, I predict foreclosure before the short sale gets anywhere. Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

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Category: Reverse mortgage

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